CubeIDE forcing you to login to ST [...] - Follow up

[CBerg]

The original Thread "CubeIDE forcing you to login to ST ...", opened by @JDoe.2 in August 2023 with 37 Kudos for JDoe

got shut down (flagged as read-only) today with a last statement by @Amel NASRI which is marked as "Solution".

Congratulations ST, now I am really upset. Now I know you read the community postings, you just prefer to ignore them if they are annoying. Flagging a thread as read only and posting an "alibi" technical solution where the thread clearly shows that thread was not about technical issues in common, but your customers do not want to be forced to log in to use your product is an affront against all those people who spoke out against those new policies.

Please take this posting as my formal protest against your action.

Edit: shortened Title to reflect the note from Amel

[Andrew Neil]

Indeed, this need to log in is a key reason I haven't even tried to upgrade from 1.13.0.

[unsigned_char_array]

It's one thing to force users to log in to download the tools. It's another thing to force users to log in to use those tools. At least give users the option to use alternative download mirrors (github?) in case they don't want to log in or if ST servers are down.

[Amel NASRI]

Hi @CBerg,

First of all I admit that I precipitated to make the previous thread only. I made it for a reason: the thread is diverging : discuss about:

• the issue identified previous week and taken as urgency on our side to fix it  (details here)
• the login feature not working or don't know how to do it (the procedure is explained here)

The main topic of the previous discussion and current one remains valid: why ST added the login obligation.

I'm not the right person to explain the rationale but I can ensure that at ST, we are aware about the situation and thinking about your concerns. We will come back to you if we have farther to share.

Now that I closed previous thread (my mistake) and you created this new one with same title, I suggest to continue here (the history will be always available) and I invite you to revisit the title to be aligned with the Ground Rules of our Community.

I understand your protest & I am sorry for my hasty action.

-Amel

[CBerg]

Hi @Amel NASRI 

Thank you for your answer. I had chosen this title, because it was a copy & paste of the title of the original thread. But I have changed that now, according to your note that the title should be aligned with the community rules.

I for my part can surely live with your proposal to continue the discussion in this thread. Switching back to the old thread would IMHO just add more confusion.

About the topic. Thank you for listening. I can just point out what I already mentioned before. A Supplier / Manufacturer / Solution Provider that adds mandatory logins to their products sets of several alarms at my side. I am developing software for almost 40 years now. I have seen a lot and each time a manufacturer started to put their users on a leash, the end-result was that they forced their customers to use crappy products for a way to high price because they managed it to get in a position where they could - at least for a while - dictate the conditions to the customers.

I am not willing to accept this. A supplier who puts itself into the position to change conditions after I have made the fundamental decision to build a product based on their products is an unacceptable strategical business risk. As I already have experienced how this "small changes" work out in the end, so I am on high alert when such things happen!

I am here, I use ST Products, because the Software Toolchain was free (I started with Atolic True Studio), and because of the good performance and the broad availability of the hardware. I left my old supplier National Instruments, because they made their Product a “SaaS” Product and doubled their prices after messing up the quality because they thought I had no choice. I had a choice, it was no pleasant one, but finally I built the hardware-functionality I previously bought form NI by myself, based on STM32 Microcontrollers. If I see now the first signs of a “squeeze” I am getting nervous …

If the mandatory login is just for statistic reasons, there are several other – non intrusive – options to get the data you need. If you are considering on monetizing on the IDE, my suggestion would be: make it free of charge under any circumstances for students, universities and DIY users, because this group generates your future customers and discuss with professional users like me about my expectations and a fair pricing. But under all circumstances avoid the path to “Software as a Service”. Everyone hates this license model, except the stake-/stock-holders. But they don’t work with your products, they just pull money out of it.

[unsigned_char_array]

I agree with you, except the last paragraph. I think the tools should also remain free for companies. Companies invest time and money into learning to work with the ST framework/ecosystem and switching to a paid licensing type would be unethical. It might even be illegal. Think of the challenge of a company doing hardware and software redesign of all their products with STM32 MCUs. The company I work for switched to STM32 MCUs, partly because TouchGFX is free while QT has problematic licensing. We contribute to the forum to give back to the community. If it becomes paid or severely restricted that will stop.

I'm realistic and understand that Companies like ST want some level of control and want data. I'm not expecting or demanding that to be removed. I would be happy with being able to opt out and also having the options for supplying download mirrors. If someone tries to compile a project in 10 years it should still work.

[CBerg]

yes, understandable. Free is always the best pricing you could get. And I agree so far that there should always be a free version, even for corporate users, exactly beacuse of the scenario you pointed out: if there is a bug found in my product in 5 or 10 years, I should have unrestricted accress to the original toolchain to fix that. This is a very important aspect for the decision to use a sofware tool.

This does not mean I'd expect ST to provide all their IDE releases on their website for the next 20 years. Clearly not. This would be my responsibility to keep my tools at a safe place just in case I need them later on. But I need to be sure, that I am able to use that toolchain when needed in 5 or 10 years in the future, without a login that could (theoretically) be blocked by the supplier and I have no option to prevent this.

Besides that: I would be willing to pay a fair price for a professional IDE maintained by the manufacturer of the hardware. I would NOT pay for CubeIDE at the current stage, because it has to many serious flaws like the lack of CMSIS integration (this is really a mess!), and I would clearly not pay an exagerated the price like ARM / Keil is asking for their product (and it's SaaS AFAIK).

[JDoe.2]

I've just noticed what happened to my thread. I'm also very upset and, true to my Frenchman nature, I'm about to complain. This is Yellow Vest time. If you get the feeling that I'm being less polite than in the previous thread, it's because I'm starting to realize that a customer being polite is mistaken for weakness. As if this were some sort of PID regulation loop, I'm now compensating the other way.

I tried getting in touch with the ST personel involved (a Lina DABASINSKAITE apparently renamed the old thread) but it appears you can't send private messages, so we'll be doing this in public. I don't mind.

First thing first, I do not appreciate the renaming of the old thread. I was careful not to write "BS" precisely to avoid censorship but hey, when Corporate wants to sweep negative comments under the rug, they'll just make up any arbitrary excuse; and one that relies on subjective criteria is very easy to weaponize. The 1984'ed title now reads like a positive instead of a complaint: starts with "solved", ends with "complete", how effing convenient for you. Amel Nasri or whoever made the change could have asked me to rephrase, instead they chose to neuter. I'm not tolerating this.

I also don't accept the weak excuse for closing the thread. It isn't solved because ST is still forcing us to login. And I'm going to paste what I wrote in my original post because it is still the fact of the matter. I'll make it bold so maybe you can read it better this time:

FYI, some of us work in companies where our computers are not, must not and cannot be, connected to the internet. It's already tough enough installing some of your HAL libraries (the patches) while being offline, we do not need the additional hassle of a login system that does nothing useful anyway.

And now for a very recent, very negative experience caused by this login ***:

Two weeks ago, I participated in the Eurobot robotics championship. One of the teams I'm helping uses STM32 and needed me to urgently build and flash their firmware on new hardware. We were hundreds of kilometers from home, I had a borrowed laptop, it had CubeIDE but no login saved, and of course the necessary HAL for my target weren't already installed. I do not know my ST login by heart because frankly ST, it'll be a cold day in Hell before I waste a single neuron on that sort of ***. End-result: the new hardware couldn't be used, the team had to go into its following matches handicapped. You made half a dozen college students sad, and that after weeks of preparation and a road trip halfway across France, for something most of them will only get to do once in their lives. Believe me, they WILL remember that long after they graduate and get jobs in the industry. And those are the kinds of ultra-motivated kids that will go far and will have buying decision on your products for decades to come. And they all have social networks in their DNA, for better or worse.

ST did have a booth at the championship but I was way too busy or I would have gone and complained in person. I regret not doing so, now that I see how you've handled my original complaint on this forum.

As for me, I don't just train future engineers, I'm a veteran of several industries. Right now I'm working for a very well-known automotive supplier of EV ECU's, chargers and inverters, and for the past two months I've been looking at different suppliers of MCU's for our next product, which will be in millions of cars in the future. ST Stellar is under consideration, however from day one I have raised a red flag because of the requirement for logins on ST tools. As I've put it before, in bold, and to repeat myself, we (and our customers) install development tools from servers managed by our own IT departments. Things like logins are disabled and cannot work in those environments, resulting in crippled user experience. If you don't understand why that is, perhaps because you're only here to "manage the community", please bring in someone from ST's IT department so they can confirm for your executives how the real world works.

To reiterate:

No one wants to be monitored. Most people value their privacy; companies even more so.

No one wants telemetry, especially hidden telemetry.

No one wants any of that enabled by default. It should always be opt-in only.

And if it doesn't tangibly benefit the customer, you shouldn't even be doing it in the first place.

And I swear to the almighty Cthulhu, if you ever decide to go full Microsoft and install an "AI assistant" that learns how we code "to help us" (and maybe secretly monetize our skills), all you'll be helping us do is switch to a different manufacturer. I'll just argue that's industrial espionage.

I was an Intel customer before I switched to Atmel. And then I switched to Cypress. And then I switched to NXP. And then I switched to ST. You should not feel certain you're the last on that list and cannot be replaced. Risc V is looking sexier by the minute, at this point. Or I could just decide to go FPGA, make my own Cortex-M1 or LEON3 designs same as I used to for the European Space Agency, and never have to deal with this again.

I've always selected MCU's based on convenience: are they easy to design boards for? Are they easy to code for? Is the manufacturer respectful? Those are the criteria your customers go by. None of us is buying ST because we love the ST logo and show it off "on social". You're not Apple, you're not selling iPhones. You're FACOM and you're selling screwdrivers. The day FACOM requires a login for people to change the bits on their ratchet wrench is the day people stop buying FACOM.

Denying reality doesn't change it, 38 people "kudoed" the original comment, but maybe you don't realize what that means in practice: I'm the only one where I work who uses an ST account and posts on the forum, and it's like that in most places because we're not paid to waste time on forums. When we really need it it's just one guy creating a login and posting. My feelings on this matter are shared by many engineers where I work. 38 kudos doesn't mean 38 people, chances are it's a lot more than that.

Oh and before I leave: we still don't know what exactly you're claiming we gain from logging into your tools, compared to when we didn't have to. I'm still not seeing it, only hassle, waste of time and frustration.

[CBerg]

I like a good rant :) ... take my Kudo.

[JDoe.2]

You're welcome :beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:

All joking aside, I'm past my limit with corporate BS. I'm at the point where I've switched to Linux because Windows has gotten so bad I need to rebuild their installers from scratch to castrate Windows Update and all their spyware, bloatware, adware, not to mention disembowel Cortana. And now they announced an AI "copilot" that will record everything on your screen at all times. CIA wet dream. What will it take for corporations to take a hint?

You know, I used to answer customer surveys. And on trade shows I used to give honest feedback to suppliers. I don't bother anymore. They want to spy on me instead of trusting my word, then why should I waste time? Idiotic, disrespectful practices killed my goodwill in that regard. Now I don't answer surveys AND I do my best to eliminate telemetry. They get less data than they used to.

Anyway, that's enough bile for one day. Time to settle down and see what ST has to say. Oh, by the way, I just checked: the old thread got the most kudos on the forum by a huge margin. Let's hope ST understands what this means in terms of customer sentiments and acts on it.